IBIS Macromodel Task Group Meeting date: 04 February 2014 Members (asterisk for those attending): Agilent: Fangyi Rao * Radek Biernacki Altera: David Banas Julia Liu Hazlina Ramly ANSYS: Samuel Mertens Dan Dvorscak * Curtis Clark Steve Pytel Luis Armenta Arrow Electronics: Ian Dodd Cadence Design Systems: Terry Jernberg * Ambrish Varma Feras Al-Hawari Brad Brim Kumar Keshavan Ken Willis Cavium Networks: Johann Nittmann Celsionix: Kellee Crisafulli Cisco Systems: Ashwin Vasudevan Syed Huq Ericsson: Anders Ekholm IBM: Greg Edlund Intel: * Michael Mirmak Maxim Integrated Products: Mahbubul Bari Hassan Rafat Ron Olisar Mentor Graphics: * John Angulo Zhen Mu * Arpad Muranyi Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov Micron Technology: * Randy Wolff * Justin Butterfield NetLogic Microsystems: Ryan Couts Nokia-Siemens Networks: Eckhard Lenski QLogic Corp. James Zhou Andy Joy SiSoft: * Walter Katz Todd Westerhoff Doug Burns * Mike LaBonte Snowbush IP: Marcus Van Ierssel ST Micro: Syed Sadeghi Teraspeed Consulting Group: Scott McMorrow * Bob Ross TI: Casey Morrison Alfred Chong Vitesse Semiconductor: Eric Sweetman Xilinx: Mustansir Fanaswalla Ray Anderson The meeting was led by Arpad Muranyi ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Opens: - Radek: We need to discuss the overclocking issues raised at the summit. - Arpad and Radek expressed reservations about the proposed method. - Walter suggested power delivery macromodels for part level. - Arpad: We should review the summit. -------------------------- Call for patent disclosure: - None ------------- Review of ARs: - None ------------- New Discussion: IBIS summit review: - Arpad: It was well attended, 59 people. - Package modeling was most interesting. - It was suggested that Walter and Arpad should have personal meetings. - Michael M: Ken had another proposal in his "rant". - Ambrish: Ken asked to avoid keyword explosion. - Walter: MCP has lots of commented keywords contained within SPICE files. Package Proposals: - Michael M: Do we have enough IC vendor feedback? - Are they paying attention to what the proposed formats are? - Walter: We should ask what they currently generate. - Arpad: - There are 3 common data formats: S, W, and RLC - These can all be SPICE - Walter: - There are three problem classes: - I/O, where we need to simulate channel ISI. - Package crosstalk. - Power delivery, a difficult modeling challenge. - Power noise affects buffer rail voltages. - The sum of all buffer [Composite Current]s comes from the die. - The package needs capacitors to replenish current. - Also some chips turn parts of the die off at times, changing the current profile. - SerDes power is easier to predict because it's random. - Michael M: Do vendors need something IBIS doesn't address? - Arpad: Feedback may be lacking due to lack of familiarity with our IBIS keywords. - Walter: We are not doing well getting requirements from vendors. - Michael M: One colleague asked for clarification, no other feedback. - Arpad: Most tools support non-IBIS package models today. - Michael M: Is Ken Willis right? - We do not hear many complaints from the many IBIS users. - Arpad: IBIS still could be adding value. - Walter: Some of our proposals could add much value. - Mike L: We need to know what users need, and we have none present in this meeting. - Ambrish: Users may have what they need already. - Walter: A good industry standard for package model delivery would pressure the industry. - Randy: Currently IBIS hinders the ability to get models into simulators. - Walter: An s80p model could be extracted various ways for different purposes. - Randy: That could work, if transparent to customers. - Walter: It can be challenging to generate. - Arpad: The question is if s-params will do the job. - Michael M: Engineers will be looking for something that makes their work easier or better. - A "same level" solution will not do. - Walter: Large companies will add procurement requirements for a good solution. - Arpad: Can get get them to join us or write their requirements? - Walter: I can get some statements. AR: Walter collect user statements regarding their packaging needs Tabled topics: - Ambrish: I would like to discuss backchannel next week. - Michael M motioned to untable BIRD 147. - Ambrish seconded. - No one objected. - Radek: BIRD 128 is related. - Michael M motioned to untable BIRD 128. - Ambrish seconded. - No one objected. - Arpad: Walter has a PAM4 topic on the agenda, should we discuss that? - Walter: We could remove it, there really is no need for it. - Arpad removed the topic. - Arpad: Do we still need topic 12? - Ambrish motioned to remove it. - Radek seconded. - No one objected. - Arpad: Do we still need topic 12? - Michael M: This is still relevant. - Walter proposed adding tabled items for overclocking and macromodel power models. - Arpad added these. ------------- Next meeting: 11 February 2014 12:00pm PT ------------- IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List: 1) Simulator directives